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Allen: What technique do you use to gather herbs?

David: Traditional gathering always begins and ends with prayer. There are lots of protocols, and each family and Ahupua'a (land segment) had its' own protocols.

After the healing has progressed to a place where the plant medicine becomes necessary, the practitioner prepares to gather the plants.

The practitioner arises before the birds begin to make noise (before 4 or 5 am) and heads up the mountain to "Wao 'Akua" (the forest of the Gods) to a place that he has pre-selected to gather medicine.

There is a specific Hawaiian protocol that happens involving asking permission, declaring lineage, bringing a gift, expressing gratitude, declaring conscious intention, declaring unconscious intention, and then expressing gratitude again.

What I do in addition, (which is not traditional as far as I know), is to hold the image of my patient in perfect health as I'm gathering.

There are many specifics to gathering la'au (plants). The right hand gathers for men, the left for women. Some plants want to be gathered in groups. Others want to be gathered alone. Plants as gathered are rolled from the top to the bottom, then pounded in reverse. There are specific signs to watch for while gathering. Certain colors are not worn, there is a specific way to focus the eyes, etc....

But there is *always* prayer. Permission is always asked, and gratitude always expressed.

Allen: If you are in an area that does not have a plant you need for a treatment, can you substitute another plant for it? If so, how do you know which one?

David: Of course you can substitute. Selecting the right substitute just involves experience. The Chinese diagnostic system is very helpful in this regard. It allows one to look cross culturally and be reasonably effective in one's choices.

I'm eclectic and pragmatic, I'll use Chinese, Hawaiian, and Western herbs in all sorts of combinations. It can get very interesting. (Laughs) My students at the Traditional Chinese Medical College of Hawai'i often emerge from clinical rounds with a glazed "cross- cultural-confusion" look in their eyes.

Because my diagnostics are from traditional Chinese medicine, everything I do runs through that filter. But what I use as tools can vary widely. The truth is that there are lots of "interchangeable parts" in herbal medicine.

A lot of Western herbs have been categorized into Chinese medical terms. Chris Hobbs and Peter Holmes have made Western herbs accessible to Chinese herbalists. And I've spent the last ten years categorizing Hawaiian herbs into the language of Chinese medicine. Our toolbox gets larger by the day.

Allen: What is your opinion on Homeopathy?

David: I'm not a big fan of it. It's like having a cow fart in your garden to fertilize it.

I have three criteria for recommending treatment modalities to my patients. If any of these are present, then I consider it. They are:

1) The treatment makes Common Sense. 2) The treatment has some Scientific Basis. 3) The treatment has been used for a VERY long time in an Indigenous Medicine.

#1 is important because we sometimes overlook some things which are are really obvious. Did you know that it wasn't until the late 1980s that the American community of pediatricians acknowledged that newborn infants feel pain?

Hello! Up to that point, they said that the nervous systems of newborns had not developed sufficiently to experience pain. What planet are these people on? All that crying during circumcision was supposedly because the babies were frightened. Any mother can tell you that newborns feel pain!

#2 is important because science is a wonderful way of looking at the world and very powerful. But science shouldn't be the only criteria for examining medicine. Science is a good servant but a poor master.

#3 is important because it has been time tested. And as I said, part of our humanness.

Allen: What do you think about the new thing in some herbal medicines, of selling "Standardized" herbs, and extracts?

David: It's fine as long as they aren't destroying the forest to get these plants. Destroying the results of 60 million years of evolution so you can have a timely bowel movement is not a reasonable trade-off.

It's good in the sense that it allows allopaths an access to different tools. It's a reflection of that scientific model of medicine where we try to go in and fix that damned molecule that's screwing up the works.

In the case of 'Awa (Kava Kava) it's been a very good thing because the market may have been contaminated with Piper auritum, which is kind of like 'Awa's evil twin brother. It has safrole in it and absolutely no kavalactones. Although it is medicinal it can also be liver toxic in high doses. I sometimes wonder if the current rash of liver disorders ascribed to 'Awa is due to its' evil twin.

I've heard that some of the extraction processes are sort of nasty when they standardize plants, but I'm really not that familiar with supplements. I like to get my medicines from the earth.

Allen: Do you think that wild herbs are more potent than raised herbs? For example a wild plant versus an organically grown plant.

David: If you're comparing wildcrafted to organic, I don't suspect that there would be much difference. The organic might even be more potent, having more nutrition and less competition. However traditional medicines often differentiate old wildcrafted plants from cultivated ones, so I may be wrong about that. But if you're comparing wildcrafted/organic to the waxed and dyed cardboard crap that we buy in the average supermarket there is no comparison. That stuff has no nutritional value compared to organic food. As Keoki Sousa once said to me while we were in a supermarket "There's no food in here!" When I weed my garden I usually end up eating half of the weeds. Almost everything is food or medicine if you know how to use it. My teacher Kaipo Kaneakua forages much of what he eats. But of course... it helps to know what one is doing

Allen: What about eating. Are there certain herbs that are better to eat at every meal, others better to eat in the morning, and others at night? Are there certain herbs that should be eaten in the summer vs the winter or other seasons and vice versa?

David: Everyone's body is different. People need to listen to their bodies. Your own body can tell you much more about what you should do than I ever could. People are funny, they believe magazine articles before they believe their own body.

Watch what goes in, watch what comes out, and notice how you feel in between. Watch short term and long term. You'll see patterns you hadn't suspected were there.

Allen: In a traditional Hawaiian Luau are there foods served for medicinal purposes, or is it just for celebration?

David: I don't know the specific uses of food in Hawaiian medicine, I'm sure there were plenty. But let's look at Luau in perspective. Luau is of course a celebration, but it is much more than that. It is a gathering of family. Few things in Hawai'i are more important than family. Family IS healing. Family IS medicine. When we understand Hawaiian medicine this goes to the heart of the healing.

Allen: Did you see the news regarding Aloe vera? Recently some western scientists have acknowledged that it really does help heal wounds, cuts, scrapes, bites, etc. Apparently it is something to do with the make up of the cellulose in the plant. Can you give a background on Aloe vera? It's uses, how it works, etc?

David: Aloe is quite amazing with a substantial history. Check out http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com/aloevera.html That's a good place to start.

Allen: I was always told that fresh aloe torn right off the leaf is much better than the stuff sold in bottles.

David: As a rule it's usually better to use fresh material, but it's not always practical. Pills on the counter that end up in your body work better than plants in the woods that don't.

Allen: You said "Being in a native Hawaiian forest is an experience that can move one's soul. I can't even describe it." I know what you mean. Just listening to the silence, feeling the history and spirits there. It seems there is a wisdom there that is waiting to be touched, it wants to speak, but it is really hard to make that connection with it.

David: It is beyond description. It is literally going back in time a million years. It can bring me to tears.

Allen: One thing that you must really be worried about knowing and using traditional Hawaiian medicine is the overgrowth of people in Hawai'i.

David: This subject is very important. If you want to learn more you can go to http//www.medicineatyourfeet.com/whyyoushouldcare.html
The article is called "Why you should care what is happening in Hawai'i".

The long and short of it is that Hawai'i is the most incredible and unique biosystem on earth, and it's almost gone. Half of our native birds are extinct. Half of those left are endangered. Hawai'i has the highest degree of endemism in the world. What this means is that a higher percentage of our native species are unique than anywhere else on earth. Development in Hawai'i is nothing short of a gang rape. Greed and ignorance are the keywords of the day. Our politicians and business people work hand in hand to grab whatever they can.

I watch my Hawaiian friends die inside each time a piece of their home is turned into the tackiest kind of amusement park or shopping mall you can imagine. Development is created for people who don't care about Hawaiian people, Hawaiian culture, or the health of this land. If they did care, how could they put up such cheap trash? The pain I've seen in the faces of my teachers haunts me to this day.

To Hawaiians, this land is sacred. Their ancestors sailed across the Pacific in canoes with only the stars, the wind, and their own genius to guide them. Could YOU do that?

Undoubtedly, many perished in their voyages. Polynesian legends long ago told of a paradise to the north called "Hawaiki". They found it. This is it. And here we are turning it into a shopping mall filled with carcinogenic "food" and useless plastic garbage.

What we need to do is to give back as much as we take from the land. All of us. This is true of any relationship, a relationship between two people, or a relationship between the people and the land. The land gives us all she has without complaint. And all we do is take, and take....

Allen: Is there anything that can be done to save Hawaiian from destruction?

David: If enough people finally decide to give something back instead of just taking... then it's possible. Our politicians aren't going to do it though... they've been bought and paid for. We'll have a "public meeting" on Maui to hear testimony on a proposed development, and seventy people will testify against it. Not one person will testify in support of it, and it will still pass. Why bother having public testimony if you're going to ignore it? Our politicians should hold their heads in shame.

The descendants of the missionary families and the developers are forcing Hawai'i nei to grab her ankles. There are even "environmentalists" who are developers. They just want to get their turn at her. If these people have their way, our only legacy to our children will be greed and destruction.

We are like drug addicts, selling our children's inheritance so we can feed our cravings for the latest gizmo or the admiration of our nose pickin' peers. We pack our silicon coated nostrils with one new fad after another. Does anyone actually *like* strip malls, fast food, and disposable lifestyles? In our Slash and Burn society, this is just cotton candy. It tastes sweet but has no nutrition. In the long run it just makes us sick. It is a sad, hollow facade, devoid of the richness of our humanity.

We have large landowners, developers, and corporations who pay lip service to environmental issues, but they really could care less. How do I know this? By their behavior. What does their behavior say? It says: "Business As Usual… How Can I Make More Money?" They have no intention of protecting the environment. When push comes to shove, they care about their money... period. They pimp our home off to the highest corporate bidder. Occasionally they "graciously" lower themselves to donate miniscule plots of stolen land to the people who are the real heroes of these islands.

I call this the "Theresienstadt Syndrome". If you recall, Theresienstadt was the model concentration camp in Poland that the Nazis used to display to the world. "See, we're not bad people, we have some happy Jews here."

The real heroes of Hawai'i are people like Rene Silva and Art Medeiros. I watch them break their backs trying to repair what the rest of us are so busy destroying.

Allen: You said "What we need to do is to give back as much as we take from the land. All of us." What can we do?

David: What can we do? Right now we're like deer in the headlights. It almost doesn't matter *what* we do as long as we do *something*! We're going to make mistakes... count on it. We don't have to be perfect, politically correct or have all the answers. We don't have to live like Fred Flintstone before we can try to make things better. We just have to try to give back as much as we take.

What does this mean, "...to give back as much as we take"? I don't know... you tell me. Just asking the question is going to take us to the next level. It may be different for everyone.

For me the most important step is to empower myself and re-connect to the earth. We must be willing to make sacrifices that are a bit out of our comfort zone.

What can we do? Join and become active in the Sierra Club and The Nature Conservancy. Plant a tree. *Don't* buy something for a change. Go swimming or give someone a back rub instead. Learn what is and is not native to your area. (There are no bad plants, just plants out of place. Everything and everybody has to come from somewhere.) Make a commitment to being a bit uncomfortable. Walk somewhere. Go out and look at the stars. Thank them. Volunteer. Refuse to buy crappy products with tons of packaging. When a company's packaging encourages you to recycle, call the toll free number on the label and ask them if they are so big on recycling, then why isn't their product made of recycled materials. (Believe me it won't be). Call them hypocrites. Take responsibility for your own health and quality of life. Stop suing people. Stop making babies. Grow your own food. Propagate what is native in your area. Demand that your M.Diety value your time as much as his own. Stop looking for easy ways out. As Ronald Reagan said "People keep telling me that there are no simple answers. Well, the truth is that there are simple answers... there just aren't any easy ones."

The irony is that when we actually start doing things which we think of as "uncomfortable", it increases our quality of life! As Rilke said "Our deepest fears are the dragons that guard our deepest treasure."

Allen: Is there anything that can be done to save the native Hawaiian ecosystems?

David: Just recently I met with a patient who'd had a stroke and was very interested in Hawaiian healing. He had consulted with a traditional healer on O'ahu and that practitioner had recommended an obscure plant that I had never heard of by its' Hawaiian name. In old Hawai'i, the same plant in a different area or a different island might have a totally different name. I had some ideas, but I needed to see the plant.

This man arranged to have some of this plant flown over from O'ahu. I went to see it. It was endemic (existed only in Hawai'i), somewhat rare, and I'd seen it before but had never used it. I had some educated guesses as to what family, genus, and species it might be, so I took some pictures of it and emailed it to some native plant specialists that I know.

Because this plant is endemic I was hesitant to use it as medicine. Our endemic plants are extremely precious and I take the use of rare plants as medicine very seriously. So I made a deal with this patient. If he would agree to propagate this plant, then I would agree to go find some for him to use for his healing. There are far too many people who take without giving back. It's time for us to start giving back.

If enough people finally decide to give something back instead of just taking... then it's possible.

Allen: Regarding native Hawaiian plants, are you involved or going to set up some sort of reforestation program? If so, let me know, we can also post a notice for donations for your program.

David: Great! We are reforesting a valley outside of Lahaina called Honokowai. It is an old Hawaiian settlement and is fantastic. You can see some photographs at http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com/honokowai.html

Allen: David, thank you so much for this interview. It is greatly appreciated. Are there any final thoughts you would like to pass on to our readers?

David: Illegitimum non carborundum. Don't let the bastards grind you down.